In this Discussion
- beckysioux August 2008
- dollarflame6 August 2008
- Tempe Arizona August 2008
- thephantommilk August 2008
Russia and Georgia at war
1900 dead already. Full scale war has been declared.
It's supposed to be time for the Olympics
Bush is putting Russia at fault, even tho 30,000 refugees have already fled from Georgia to Russia.
McCain loves this. The Russian people are afraid Osetia will become another Iraq.
Bush is making it worse. My feeling is he wants to prove he's not a lame duck yet.
Rice was in Georgia a few days ago- very odd.
It's supposed to be time for the Olympics
Bush is putting Russia at fault, even tho 30,000 refugees have already fled from Georgia to Russia.
McCain loves this. The Russian people are afraid Osetia will become another Iraq.
Bush is making it worse. My feeling is he wants to prove he's not a lame duck yet.
Rice was in Georgia a few days ago- very odd.
Comments
you going in?
ive not caught any UK news on our stance yet
Bush has put the blame on Russia and told Russia his expectations, basically he told them to cease to desist.
Georgia is pushing Bush to sit against Russia.
I'm not sure exactly of the mechanics of what's going on tho. But a friend of mine who is Russian is crying b/c of her and her friends' boyfriends have been called to duty.
Basically, Russian peacekeepers were killed by Georgians, and Russian citizens in Ossetia were killed as well; Georgia was trying to take the area. And then now Russia retaliated. And Georgia is retaliating the retaliation. And there were very storybook-like declarations of war.
The odd thing is the media here is still on Olympics mania.
sorry to hear about your friends boys are going to war, i hope they return safely
So, now I talked to my friend about what's going on- she herself doesn't know the exact mechanics yet, but she let me barrage her with questions. I love asking her things b/c even our most liberal news, NPR, gets the facts wrong when it comes to Russia. Usually I tell her what our media is saying and she'll answer, "No, not true. Yes, that's true. No, not true. No, not true either."
Anyway, the backstory is that during the Soviet Union, they were all, presumably, one big happy family. The union broke up and the groups now hold their own positions, namely: Osetia is pro-Russia and Georgia is pro-American. Ethnically, the Georgians and Osetians are darker than Russians and while the older generation spoke Russian, they now have their own language. While all Orthodox, they also have their own churches.
Osetia and Georgia have been fighting over land for a while, most heavily starting about 2 years ago.
Russia has been acting as a peacekeeper between the two.
But now Georgia attacked the Russian peacekeepers, Russian citizens in Osetia and of course, some Osetian civilians as well. Russia supports Osetia b/c Osetia is the victim, and Russia also can't stand for an attack on its own citizens.
Russia wants Georgia to stop attacking Osetia and is taking military action.
Georgia wants the Osetian land and has asked the USA to support Georgia.
Condi Rice was in the area a few days ago, and yes, the USA is supporting Georgia. We've been giving them weapons as well as armor for quite some time. And they asked that we fly them over some troops they gave us in Iraq, and we just agreed to do it.
Even tho Russia was acting as peacekeeper between Georgia and Osetia and it was Georgia who attacked both Osetians and Russians, Bush has quickly labeled Russia the aggressor.
America, as a whole, still fear Russia. Cold War feelings have not dissipated, and this kind of comflict, where Russia is painted as the agressor, is lovely for the neocons, b/c for some reason, ppl trust them more than Dems when it comes to terrorism, war and safety. So this will help McCain.
Why Georgia attacked so ferociously right now during Olympics week, I don't know, but it all seems suspicious.
things are never as black and white as the news paints it
But interestingly, it's almost that Russia just happens to be right this time, b/c as one post on the Daily Kos explains,
"The Russians claim they went in to protect ethnic Russians, not to defend Ossetian autonomy. Given the Chechnya situation, the Russians would have quite a problem upholding the rights of an autonomous region for independence or even self-governance. So it's not at all as clear as you make it out to be.
I think it's naive not to see this as a projection of Russian power, pretty simply.
Such autonomy problems exist all over the former Soviet Union, such as Ngorno-Karabakh, Karakalpakistan, Uzbek enclaves in Kyrgyzstan, etc. the mega-destruction has happened only when Russia is asserting its hegemony." -Ohiobama
"Yeltsin was wrong to renege on Chechen independence and had much blood on his hands. But in other more recent instances-- South Ossetia, Abkhazia, Transdnistria-- Russia has invoked these territories' rights to self-determination. Of course they are pursuing self-interest thereby; but in terms of international law I think they're in the right this time, for Saakashvili is resorting to military force to means to forcibly suppress the independence of South Ossetia, and Abkhazia is next on his list. Fail to stop him in South ossetia and he will almost certainly cause greater bloodshed in Abkhazia." -Lance Boyl
Hello, pot, kettle is on line two. Pot, kettle is on line two.
And yes, I understand that Georgia started this war, but this is so utterly stupid of Bush to condemn Russia for doing something "similar" to what the US has done to Iraq.
with russia gonna be kicked out of G8 and all that shit
Basically, he says it's not clear who attacked who first, but Russia's been waiting for this to happen so that they could take action against Georgia for forming relationships with the West.
He says that yes, Georgia was initially at fault, but he thinks Russia overreacted because they want to keep Georgia under their thumb.
Here's his video- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_p3hLtr5Ok
(if you ignore the peanut butter face, what he says is very intelligent and interesting, haha)
there's also some serious discussion going on in the comments (disregarding all the idiots who're like, "I thought Georgia was a state", either cause they're serious or they think they're being funny)
so now I'm really confused, but either way, I don't think the blame for this can be placed neatly on one country.
Wiki'd to find:
The name John Green may refer to:
* Jack N. Green (born 1945 as John Newton Green), American cinematographer
* John Green (author), Michael L. Printz Award winning Young Adult writer
* John Green (1787-1852), English architect
* John Green (botanist) (born 1930)
* John Green (composer) (1908–1989), Inductee of the Songwriters Hall of Fame
* John Green (DGNCS), Chaplain of the Fleet and Director General, Naval Chaplaincy Service
* John Green (US Army officer), American soldier
* John C. Green, Director of the Ray C. Bliss Institute of Applied Politics
* John Leslie Green, English war hero
* John Richard Green, English historian
* John W. Green (judge) (1781–1834), Virginia state supreme court justice
* John Willison Green, Prominent "Bigfoot" researcher
* John Green (football player), former NFL player
* John Green (Judge), (1807-1887) Indiana State Senator
* John Green (musician), a member of Slipknot
* John Green (Australian politician), a politician in the state of Tasmania, Australia
* John Green (MP) (1815-1883), Irish MP for County Kilkenny
Seriously, I ask b/c none of those guys appear to be Slavic scholars. Looking at his profile, I'm guessing he's number 2: young adult novel writer.
That Russia "over-reacted" is a very biased, very typical-American view, buttressed under the facts that:
1) the USA has been militarily arming Georgia for years
2) the USA has been militarily training Georgia for years
3) the USA has been giving vests and other military equipment to Georgia for years
4) the USA has enlisted Georgia as one of the heavist counts of slavic soldiers to fight for us in Iraq
5) Rice was in the area right before this happened
6) It's an American msm lie that nobody knows who attacked first. check out slavic stations for first hand accounts.
Numbers 1 thru 4 remind me of another nation we trained and armed: Afghanistan. Ironically, we armed and trained the Taliban out of our antagonism with the Russians. Oh the irony.
As Becky said, Bush and the entire American gov't are hypocritical jerks: our entire invasion of Iraq was supposedly to save the poor peoples and give them peace and democracy (after the whole wmd's and 9/11 connection was found to be a lie). So Bush has absolutely no right to say Russia overreacted or was the aggressor or any other crap he's pulling.
Pundits and most American observers can't get out of their view that Russia is always a scary communist monster (and really, "communism" in and of itself should not be viewed as a scary or evil concept. We need to get out of an "American Definition of Democracy = ultimate truth, the rest of the world needs to cooperate and get in line" perspective). So when the msm and Bush say "Russia's wrong," everybody nods. People don't recognize that the Russian perspective is not simply "we want power." Likewise, many ppl can't get out of the mindset that somehow the invasion of Iraq was reasonable but Russia's action here is somehow very unreasonable. I'm not saying Russia is an angel; as I posted above, Russia's support for Abkhazia is hypocritical given its stance on Chechnya. But in this case, Russia was directly provoked by Georgia's attack on Osetia...We were never directly provoked by Iraq. We are the real aggressors in the world and no longer have the moral authority to define an "overreaction" to an attack. Rather than simply and categorically being the bad guy, Russia wasn't trying to keep Georgia under its thumb b/c George wasn't under Russia's thumb in the first place: Georgia is an American stronghold while Osetia is the pro-Russia state: Georgia and Osetia are *already* antagonists, and Russia has been, in fact, peacekeeper in the area for years. Saakashvili is a legitimate threat not just to Russia but to Osetia as well. If a diplomatic solution can be reached, that's awesome, but it's hard for me to digest Americans calling Russia overreacting had the shoe been on the other foot. The case is just far more complex than Russia wanting to "keep Georgia under its thumb."
with russia gonna be kicked out of G8 and all that shit
That makes me so angry. If any gov't deserves to be punished, it's the American gov't, let's all be honest.
Can you believe we spent a TRILLION dollars killing ppl in Iraq? It's mind-blowing!
lets hope it lasts
Wiki'd to find:
The name John Green may refer to:
* Jack N. Green (born 1945 as John Newton Green), American cinematographer
* John Green (author), Michael L. Printz Award winning Young Adult writer
* John Green (1787-1852), English architect
* John Green (botanist) (born 1930)
* John Green (composer) (1908–1989), Inductee of the Songwriters Hall of Fame
* John Green (DGNCS), Chaplain of the Fleet and Director General, Naval Chaplaincy Service
* John Green (US Army officer), American soldier
* John C. Green, Director of the Ray C. Bliss Institute of Applied Politics
* John Leslie Green, English war hero
* John Richard Green, English historian
* John W. Green (judge) (1781–1834), Virginia state supreme court justice
* John Willison Green, Prominent "Bigfoot" researcher
* John Green (football player), former NFL player
* John Green (Judge), (1807-1887) Indiana State Senator
* John Green (musician), a member of Slipknot
* John Green (Australian politician), a politician in the state of Tasmania, Australia
* John Green (MP) (1815-1883), Irish MP for County Kilkenny
Seriously, I ask b/c none of those guys appear to be Slavic scholars. Looking at his profile, I'm guessing he's number 2: young adult novel writer.
Yes, he's the young adult novelist. He's a really good writer too.
He and his brother Hank do vlogbrothers together on youtube. You've posted some of Hank's videos here before, Sally. (at least one- the political candidate anagrams?)
They're both very talented, educated, well-informed, and generally I admire them a great deal.
And I'm not saying he's right, I just thought it was interesting. He's talked about politics before, and generally I agree 100% with everything he says. Now maybe, like NPR, he's not as spot-on when it comes to Russia and the former USSR and such. I don't know.
Just generally, there's people that I trust when it comes to politics- you and John Green are two of these people. Neither of you are Slavic scholars, but you actually agree on many issues, so it's interesting that your viewpoints differ here.
I certainly don't know who was right and who was wrong in this, and I'm not going to argue it.
But yeah, I do realize that USA is being incredibly hypocritical right now. I'm over it. It's the USA. And Bush. I've pretty much given up hope where they're concerned.
Also, now I want to know more about John Willison Green, prominent "bigfoot" researcher.
There was a girl, from San Francisco, who was visiting relatives in Ossetia when the bombing started. She and her aunt, on Fox, were trying to very clearly and explicitly make absolutely manifest to the American people that the one who is to blame for all of these deaths is Saakashvili and the Georgian government.
What did Fox do? They cut her off. Every time she started again to say it, they cut her off. It was amazing.
What happened is clear, and whom to blame is clear- but the Americans absolutely refuse to hear it or believe it. Rice and Bush continue to castigate Russia.
And yeah, I didn't know his name but I recognized him as the nerdfighter guy after I clicked (the anagram vid is pretty much the only vid of theirs I've seen in full) and I didn't know he was actually a novelist.
It just really bothered me that he was attributing everything to Russia wanting their thumb on Georgia- I mean, that's such a categorical view, that Russia's motivation is always power. It smacks of American fear of Russia.
People always think communism in and of itself is an evil thing, and I'm just really sick and tired of how much Americans hate and fear Russia- and how simplistically they view not only Russia but the world in general. I mean, everything is so much more complex than people here realize.
It's sad b/c this isn't, for lack of a better word, a novel: there's no evil Russia, Lex Luther, and then the angel. Innocent people have been killed, people who are Russian, people who are Ossetian, people who are Georgian.
For people to just read the mainstream American news and try to form an abstract, distanced, "intellectual" opinion of the recent strife gets me really mad- it's not something to theorize about like a chess game, while playing with peanut butter, you know?
I'm just so disgusted with the American media right now. Nobody is even questioning the validity of labeling Russia the aggressor. I wish people would read some Russian newspapers as much as they read American ones, and ascertain some semblance of the truth. Because I don't think this is an issue that we can dismiss as not having an answer, or not knowing who's right or who's wrong- it's just that nobody wants to actually analyze the situation. Sure, we have a free press, but our press is framed in a biased mindset. We report "wmd's" and "links to Alqaida" as "news" even tho those are as much unsubstantiated rumors as tabloid stories are, as Colbert pointed out the other night.
The best paper, recommended by my friend, is Argument and Fact. There's no English version, but it's worth at least a look at the photographs. There's a lot of Russian newspapers online with English versions tho. You'd have to read thru a lot and find out what's just yellow press, but people who do the research are in a much better position to evaluate what's going on. My sister's friends, who are getting their PhD's in international relations, have been obsessed with Abkhazia for years and now they're probly the only Americans I know who can give an informed opinion on the recent events. Gah, the top google news story is "Aide: Bush's words for Moscow, others." Infuriating, just totally infuriating. How many days til he's out? Sigh.
hahaha, he talked about the situation in Nepal while eating toilet paper.
and as inappropriate as it might be, it does make it more entertaining and gets people to watch and pay attention.
I bet some of the people who saw the video didn't even know there was anything going on- such as those who were like "I thought Georgia was a state". ahhh, ignorance.
And it seems like he's willing to support and defend his opinion/argument- he's at least more informed than the average american, even if his conclusion wasn't fully right.
Also, just a question- how big is Georgia, and how big are Ossetia and Abkhazia? Like, I'm all for separatist movements or w/e, and I'm not saying it shouldn't happen, but there's a point where it gets ridiculous.
As John said (paraphrased), "cause the world really needs more Luxembourgs"...