In this Discussion
- diggerchill8 September 2006
- jedi_grrlie September 2006
- kissteam1 August 2006
- mexico39taiwan August 2006
- nerverise9 August 2006
- roofing844 August 2006
- The End Has No Jen August 2006
- thephantommilk August 2006
- woodmaid8 August 2006
Should we let kids feel exclusions sting?
Should we let kids feel exclusion's sting?
Some question move to protect children from disappointment, failure
(AP) -- Penny Grossman cringes each time a student mentions a birthday party during class at her Boston, Massachusetts-area preschool. The rule there, and at a growing number of America's schools, is that parties and play-dates shouldn't be discussed unless every child in the room is invited.
Gone are the days when a kindergartner dropped a handful of party invites in the classroom cubbyholes of their closest buddies. Today, if anyone is excluded the invitations can't be handed out at school.
The idea that protecting kids from rejection is crucial to safeguarding their self-esteem has gained momentum in recent years.
Take Valentine's Day: At some schools, a second-grader can't offer paper valentines or heart-shaped candies to a short list of pals and secret crushes anymore. They give cards to everyone or no one at all.
Or sports: In many towns, scorekeeping no longer happens at soccer or softball games played by kids under 8 or 9. Win or lose, every player in the league gets a trophy at the season's end.
As with many child-rearing trends, some parents and educators see wisdom where others spot foolishness. Many see a mixture of both.
"You try and do things gently when they're little because it is still hard," says Grossman, who is raising two teenagers while teaching preschool. "But I think this is a problem, and it's a growing one, because kids grow up and have this inflated sense of self-worth. Whether they earn anything, it's always a trophy. They have no sense that you have to work hard for some things."
Susan Reel, a mother of two living in Madison, Connecticut, doesn't see a downside to inviting the whole class to a birthday party.
"When they're in first and second grade, their friends are so day-to-day. It's who they played with yesterday," she says. "So to pick one or the other is shortsighted on the parents' part."
She believes that schools are paying more attention to children's feelings because they understand better today the damage done when a small group of kids is consistently excluded.
"When we went to school, people were bullied. Now we know kids have a much greater instance of suicide and depression when they've been bullied," she says.
Jolie Nichols, also a mother of two, disagrees. She believes kids in her Minneapolis neighborhood would benefit from competing for a trophy or handling a mild bit of rejection.
"It's just natural and it's realistic to have to deal with these things," she says. At her 7-year-old daughter's gymnastics class, everyone receives the same ribbon or medal for their performance, regardless of how well they've done.
Rather than imparting self-esteem, some experts believe this gives kids an unhealthy sense of entitlement.
"Self-esteem comes from those feelings you have about yourself for a job well done, for when you have achieved something," says Dr. Georgette Constantinou, administrative director of pediatric psychiatry at Akron Children's Hospital in Ohio. "It's not something you pour into your children."
She feels that many parents aren't equipping their kids to manage basic challenges.
"How do you expect them to handle life's big bumps if they haven't experienced the little ones?" she asks.
No one disagrees that disappointment is real: There are contests we all lose, parties we're excluded from. But what motivates so many parents to postpone that reality until their children reach the age of 10 or beyond?
For one thing, kids' lives are so tightly scheduled today that we're enrolling smaller and smaller children in organized activities. It may be true that 6-year-olds aren't ready to handle losing a T-Ball championship; a generation ago, 6-year-olds wouldn't have even been playing team sports.
Parents may also be reacting to their own economic and career stress by trying to protect their kids from it.
"This group is balancing things that previous generations haven't had to balance," says Constantinou. "The number of women in the work force is phenomenal, probably the largest since the war years, so you have a lot more stressed parents."
Busy parents turn to schools and other care-givers for help, says Mike Sanchez, co-owner of Camp Innovation, a Houston, Texas-area day camp. It does offer competitive games, but also gives each camper an award each week.
"I tell counselors, always find something specific about the kids," Sanchez says. "It helps with parents who say they may not be cleaning at home or working well with a brother or sister. We work on it, and then give them an award for best spirit of the week, best cleaner of the week."
Critics of the trend worry about a generation of kids who haven't experienced rejection or failure -- especially compared with countries such as China and Japan, where a focus on competition defines the lives of many children.
Learning to compete, says Nichols, is vital. "It sets them up for real life things like a job," she says. "It helps people develop their skills."
Copyright 2006 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed
This is one of the most insanely stupid ideas I have ever heard. What happens when these kids grow up and enter the real world where people have to compete for promotions and have adult relationships where - gasp - you get rejected and may lose. They're not going to know how to cope because they weren't allowed to properly develop socially. What next? Are we going to ban assignments and exams so kids don't feel the sting of failure?
God forbid kids have to live in the real world where shit happens and everything isn't sunshine and lollipops.
Kids raised in such a way would grow up expecting rewards for doing nothing and all that is going to result in is a society full of spoiled little shits - as if we don't have that problem ALREADY.
Some question move to protect children from disappointment, failure
(AP) -- Penny Grossman cringes each time a student mentions a birthday party during class at her Boston, Massachusetts-area preschool. The rule there, and at a growing number of America's schools, is that parties and play-dates shouldn't be discussed unless every child in the room is invited.
Gone are the days when a kindergartner dropped a handful of party invites in the classroom cubbyholes of their closest buddies. Today, if anyone is excluded the invitations can't be handed out at school.
The idea that protecting kids from rejection is crucial to safeguarding their self-esteem has gained momentum in recent years.
Take Valentine's Day: At some schools, a second-grader can't offer paper valentines or heart-shaped candies to a short list of pals and secret crushes anymore. They give cards to everyone or no one at all.
Or sports: In many towns, scorekeeping no longer happens at soccer or softball games played by kids under 8 or 9. Win or lose, every player in the league gets a trophy at the season's end.
As with many child-rearing trends, some parents and educators see wisdom where others spot foolishness. Many see a mixture of both.
"You try and do things gently when they're little because it is still hard," says Grossman, who is raising two teenagers while teaching preschool. "But I think this is a problem, and it's a growing one, because kids grow up and have this inflated sense of self-worth. Whether they earn anything, it's always a trophy. They have no sense that you have to work hard for some things."
Susan Reel, a mother of two living in Madison, Connecticut, doesn't see a downside to inviting the whole class to a birthday party.
"When they're in first and second grade, their friends are so day-to-day. It's who they played with yesterday," she says. "So to pick one or the other is shortsighted on the parents' part."
She believes that schools are paying more attention to children's feelings because they understand better today the damage done when a small group of kids is consistently excluded.
"When we went to school, people were bullied. Now we know kids have a much greater instance of suicide and depression when they've been bullied," she says.
Jolie Nichols, also a mother of two, disagrees. She believes kids in her Minneapolis neighborhood would benefit from competing for a trophy or handling a mild bit of rejection.
"It's just natural and it's realistic to have to deal with these things," she says. At her 7-year-old daughter's gymnastics class, everyone receives the same ribbon or medal for their performance, regardless of how well they've done.
Rather than imparting self-esteem, some experts believe this gives kids an unhealthy sense of entitlement.
"Self-esteem comes from those feelings you have about yourself for a job well done, for when you have achieved something," says Dr. Georgette Constantinou, administrative director of pediatric psychiatry at Akron Children's Hospital in Ohio. "It's not something you pour into your children."
She feels that many parents aren't equipping their kids to manage basic challenges.
"How do you expect them to handle life's big bumps if they haven't experienced the little ones?" she asks.
No one disagrees that disappointment is real: There are contests we all lose, parties we're excluded from. But what motivates so many parents to postpone that reality until their children reach the age of 10 or beyond?
For one thing, kids' lives are so tightly scheduled today that we're enrolling smaller and smaller children in organized activities. It may be true that 6-year-olds aren't ready to handle losing a T-Ball championship; a generation ago, 6-year-olds wouldn't have even been playing team sports.
Parents may also be reacting to their own economic and career stress by trying to protect their kids from it.
"This group is balancing things that previous generations haven't had to balance," says Constantinou. "The number of women in the work force is phenomenal, probably the largest since the war years, so you have a lot more stressed parents."
Busy parents turn to schools and other care-givers for help, says Mike Sanchez, co-owner of Camp Innovation, a Houston, Texas-area day camp. It does offer competitive games, but also gives each camper an award each week.
"I tell counselors, always find something specific about the kids," Sanchez says. "It helps with parents who say they may not be cleaning at home or working well with a brother or sister. We work on it, and then give them an award for best spirit of the week, best cleaner of the week."
Critics of the trend worry about a generation of kids who haven't experienced rejection or failure -- especially compared with countries such as China and Japan, where a focus on competition defines the lives of many children.
Learning to compete, says Nichols, is vital. "It sets them up for real life things like a job," she says. "It helps people develop their skills."
Copyright 2006 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed
This is one of the most insanely stupid ideas I have ever heard. What happens when these kids grow up and enter the real world where people have to compete for promotions and have adult relationships where - gasp - you get rejected and may lose. They're not going to know how to cope because they weren't allowed to properly develop socially. What next? Are we going to ban assignments and exams so kids don't feel the sting of failure?
God forbid kids have to live in the real world where shit happens and everything isn't sunshine and lollipops.
Kids raised in such a way would grow up expecting rewards for doing nothing and all that is going to result in is a society full of spoiled little shits - as if we don't have that problem ALREADY.
Comments
I do agree somewhat with the "everyone gets a ribbon" thing, but under a certain age. 4-year-old children in a gymnastics class probably aren't going to be stellar gymnasts, and everyone should be congratulated for participating and doing their best- that's what should be stressed. After a certain age, though, things like sports become more competitive and children need to deal with that.
I agree with the Valentine's thing, too, but that's because that's what we did in my elementary school- everyone got a valentine from everyone else. *shrugs* It's just how I grew up, haha.
Kids need competition and rejection. I sucked at sports when I was younger and my sister was awesome. If I wasn't competing with kids my own age, I was at least competing with her. She was also my biggest bullie. So, what's next, separating me and my sister?
The annual thing we did at my school was place a box in the locker room and if you wanted to send someone a rose you put an envelope with $2, the name of the receipient and a note (if you liked) and on Valentines Day that person would receive a plastic red rose and a note (not written in the original persons handwriting, of course).
If someone bought you a rose, you got a rose. If someone didn't buy you a rose, you didn't get a rose. Fuck, you could send yourself a rose if you really wanted to make yourself good. The concept that you should have to send everyone a valentine sounds fucking stupid to me. If you like a person and want to do somethign special for them on Valentines Day - the day that exists simply to make the person you care about feel special - why the fuck would you do the same thing for everyone else? It defeats the purpose of valentines day, doens't it?
I don't know, it just sounds ridiculous to me. Are people over there that sad that they need to be lied to and told someone cares about them when they don't? I mean come on.
Once, when I was in grade one my mother made me invite everyone in class to my party at McDonalds and I remember deeply resenting having to invite a particular kid that I really did not like. I'm pretty sure he knew he wasn't wanted there.
i got bullied and beaten up when i was real young and it made me stronger.
ive never earned a trophy and i dont give a shit.
any prize i do have i earned.
kids dont need this babying attitude they have for their children.
this whole shit was made by mothers who dont wanna let their little baby grow the hell up.
and why do children need partys anyways?
just more bull shit.
The annual thing we did at my school was place a box in the locker room and if you wanted to send someone a rose you put an envelope with $2, the name of the receipient and a note (if you liked) and on Valentines Day that person would receive a plastic red rose and a note (not written in the original persons handwriting, of course).
If someone bought you a rose, you got a rose. If someone didn't buy you a rose, you didn't get a rose. Fuck, you could send yourself a rose if you really wanted to make yourself good. The concept that you should have to send everyone a valentine sounds fucking stupid to me. If you like a person and want to do somethign special for them on Valentines Day - the day that exists simply to make the person you care about feel special - why the fuck would you do the same thing for everyone else? It defeats the purpose of valentines day, doens't it?
I don't know, it just sounds ridiculous to me. Are people over there that sad that they need to be lied to and told someone cares about them when they don't? I mean come on.
We weren't forced to do so; it was just kind of ...expected. I mean, I'm sure if you really wanted to give Valentines to only 5 people, you could, but you just got a list of the entire class and wrote them out for everyone.
We were at an age where it was so innocent, nobody was really thinking of sending someone "something special," and it wasn't about lying and telling people that they're cared about. It was about having fun and having the class celebrate the holiday, and everyone was encouraged to participate.
Also, we got candy, too.
This was like....Kindergarten through Fourth Grade. We were like, 9 at the very most.
We were at an age where it was so innocent, nobody was really thinking of sending someone "something special," and it wasn't about lying and telling people that they're cared about. It was about having fun and having the class celebrate the holiday, and everyone was encouraged to participate.
Also, we got candy, too.
This was like....Kindergarten through Fourth Grade. We were like, 9 at the very most.
Oh, well, at that age I guess it's fair enough. What about when you were older and in high school, though?
And what happens if the class has one of those grotty kids that goes around beating people up, because we've all seen the documentaries of the violent children on TV. Or I have.
Do those kids get invites too, even if they beat up everyone else?
I actually know people who do that, mainly because the school roses are real rather than plastic.
After like, 3rd grade, everyone more or less stopped. It wasn't "cool" anymore, haha. I started doing it again in like, high school, but I just sent them to my friends, 'cause I thought it was cute to give everyone itsy bitsy Valentines.
And what happens if the class has one of those grotty kids that goes around beating people up, because we've all seen the documentaries of the violent children on TV. Or I have.
Do those kids get invites too, even if they beat up everyone else?
I actually know people who do that, mainly because the school roses are real rather than plastic.
same here.
my school does the flower thing but were too cheap so we use carnations.
the skanky girls get flowers, and your friends all send eachother flowers too so we all feel better and dont go home and cut ourselfs lol
jk
anyways
this kind of stuff makes people stronger.
we did the valentines' thing, too. No one really thought about it, it just happened. it was a "class activity," and took up most of the day too. that ended in fifth grade, and then they were given to friends.
Everyone always invited everyone of the same gender in the class to birthday parties, up through second grade. I mean, it was tough for my parents, I bet, but it just happened. But, unless we were very good friends with a boy, then no boys were ever invited. they all had cooties anyways, haha.
None of us thought about "exclusion" or any of that... it just happened. Besides,I think it was more of a morality booster for the kid that had so many friends at his/her party, haha.
and for sports, everyone got a "participation" trophy, and then there were also trophies for third/second/first place, you know. by the time we were in fifth grade, we all knew that the participation trophies meant nothing anyways, haha.
And believe me, with all this talk about "exclusion," I think that most kids can find plenty of ways to exlude others even without valentines' and birthday parties. We were all friends with certain people, even back then.
besides, I had enough of my best friend being stolen away from me on a daily basis to toughen me up for real life, all in third grade. (believe me, it sucked. especially since I didn't really like the girl who kept keeping her away from me.)
today, I hear fourth-graders on the playground telling each other "you're not popular enough to play with us". there's enough ways to exlude kids.
I think it's more important to learn how to deal with excluision, though. Now, if someone I thought was a friend didn't invite me to something, I know enough to ask them about it, and not in a "hurt and betrayed" way either. Usually, they'll have a good reason. If they don't, then maybe we're not really friends, and oh well, I'm better off without them. I don't see that kids have to learn this before middle school, either.
And I was always friends with both boys and girls. I always had my birthday parties at my house, and my parents always provided the food and we played party games. Just the same as all of my friends birthday parties. It was very rare for someone to have a party at McDonalds, because parties at home were sooooo much more fun!! Gender never seemed to bother me. I have infact caried that stigma through my whole life, although I tend to get on with boys easier now that I'm older as girls are just so bitchy and rude and I can't be doing with that.
The simple fact is that children are probably rejected because they're not friends with whomever is rejecting them. I don't ever remember this being a problem whilst I was growing up, but then maybe I was lucky enough to blessed with many friends? I don't know. And besides, would you really want to go to a party where you weren't actually wanted? I'm sorry but its so ridiculous.
And also yeah the trophy thing is crazy. I've won awards and trophies, but I've always won them for being 'the best' you know. Its only the one person who gets it. That just takes away the incentive to try and excel is everybody gets one. Hmmmm. I dunno. I know I thrive in competition, because I secretly want to win everything and I want to be the best. And I've always been that way. I think its ridiculous to try and sheild this from children, the younger you start to experience things the better.
AND THAT IS SO SAD.
I was discussing that with Barry the other day. Very sad indeed.
I was discussing that with Barry the other day. Very sad indeed.
For serious?
Halloween is fucking annoying. We don't celebrate it in Australia either and I dread October 31st and having to deal with the few little shits that actually come out and demand lollies from me. It's not an Australian holiday, I'm not going to go buy a bunch of strangers lollies. If I buy lollies I buy them for me. MEEEEEEEEEEEEE. And I don't appreciate having my house egged because I don't celebrate some incredibly stupid American holiday.
I think most non-Americans feel the same way, though maybe they're a little less annoyed about it than I am but most people find it annoying nonetheless. Some years I haven't even realised it was Halloween until a bunch of little twerps in costume ring my doorbell.
I like to turn off all the lights and pretend I'm not home on Halloween.
For my whole life I've preferred male company, possibly because I was a total tomboy (I would go out and play army with the boys rather than hairdressing with the girls, for example). And with party thing, we just invited the people we wanted to go. I got bullied quite a lot during the 3rd year of primary school and so I obviously didn't invite them to my parties. I would have walked all the way round the area to my friend's houses to deliver the invites personally rather than have the bullies at my party and have them ruin it for me.
I don't bother turning our lights off, no-one bothers much with halloween in my area and they tend to get the hint that ok, these people don't want to join in.
Yeah, kids in my area get the hint.
Then they egg your freshly painted house and cars (and before you suggest garages, we only have a 2 car garage and 5 cars
Then they egg your freshly painted house and cars (and before you suggest garages, we only have a 2 car garage and 5 cars
Well that sucks
But yeah, I always answer the door and say 'sorry, i don't believe in halloween' hahahaha
But yeah, I always answer the door and say 'sorry, i don't believe in halloween' hahahaha
lol I stopped answering the door after copping a tonne of abuse one year. The pathetic thing is that the people who actually come to our door are all people in the mid to late teens.
I mean come on. Halloween is meant to be for cute little children, right?
I mean come on. Halloween is meant to be for cute little children, right?
.......I went out trick-or-treating last year......and I was nearly 20..........*sheepish*
I love Halloween, though. It's my favourite holiday. It's not even about getting candy anymore for me, it's about dressing up and having fun and such. My mom has always been a great seamstress and costume maker, and she loves dressing up, so I guess I picked it up from her. I dunno'. I just think it's a bunch of fun. I'm looking forward to when I have my own place and can throw Halloween parties.
Also, totally went toilet-papering on Mischief Night in high school.....and my mom totally encouraged it, HAHA. She'd hand me and my friends toilet paper and be like, "If the cops catch, I know nothing about this!"