In this Discussion
- circlenepal20 August 2007
- dollarflame6 August 2007
- fog05tile August 2007
- hail9fat August 2007
- jedi_grrlie August 2007
- monday94ear August 2007
- plane8order August 2007
- target35ghost August 2007
- tune1shade August 2007
- wall2run August 2007
- women60banana August 2007
Comments
Maybe some of the places were really haunted, but with all of the effects they put in, I think at least some of it had to be fake.
Oh Sally, you're not being a jerk. It's your opinion. I in a way question it, yet I believe in it. I don't know I have double opinons on things, I can't make up my mind, but I think for this, my believing side is winning.
If you want to come in here everyday and tell us how you think that my friend was pushing the Ouija thing, and that someone didn't see a ghost, it was their imagination, go ahead! This thread is for both believers, and nonbelievers.
I'm a firm believer in science as well, but there are honestly things we don't know about. Sure, some ghost sightings are in fact due to things like sleeping near electrical outlets or carbon monoxide leaks, but how does one explain "bad vibes?"
You're, of course, to believe or not believe what you wish. Still, no offense, but I honestly am not a fan of the "oh I believe in science" spin. Am I any less into science if I believe in gut reactions and tarot and feelings of things and people that happened or existed in a certain place?
I don't think so. You don't have to believe everything in a certain category, and even if you do, you can still have other beliefs along with it.
Well, yes. Science is not about feelings. Science is about a mathematical description of the world. Biology relies on chemistry and chemistry relies on physics- and physics is simply describing Nature based on math.
I will tell you, for example, that string theory is considered rubbish by the vast majority of particle physicists because it too in the end comes from gushy feelings.
As Galileo said, mathematics is the alphabet of the language in which the world is written.
People forget what science is about.
You can't go around explaining things by ghosts...that brings us back to spontaneous generation.
And you can't confuse correlation with causation either.
Science is NOT something you "believe" in. It's not a doctrine. It's the indisputable mathematical patterns of Nature, and you can either choose to think about it or walk around not thinking about it.
I will tell you, for example, that string theory is considered rubbish by the vast majority of particle physicists because it too in the end comes from gushy feelings.
As Galileo said, mathematics is the alphabet of the language in which the world is written.
People forget what science is about.
You can't go around explaining things by ghosts...that brings us back to spontaneous generation.
And you can't confuse correlation with causation either.
Science is NOT something you "believe" in. It's not a doctrine. It's the indisputable mathematical patterns of Nature, and you can either choose to think about it or walk around not thinking about it.
All right, again I must stipulate that I admire you sticking to your beliefs. I'm not trying to put you down and I understand that I must sound naive. Still:
I guess there is no way to overlap if you're talking about the very serious core of science. Still, science is not foolproof, as much as one might hope. Little loopholes open up and scientists are proven wrong. Remember way back when, when homosexuality was considered a mental illness? What about the constantly changing theories of how dinosaurs walked (namely the T. Rex moving from being viewed as a killing machine when its developed nasal cavities and tiny arms point it toward actually being a scavenger).
Of course, both examples are completely different than the point we are arguing. Still, stories of haunts have been around for centuries and centuries. They have survived as tales of sea creatures and mythic animals were found to be simple over exaggerations of animals that exist (unicorns from narwhales, the "remains of giants" being nothing more than fossil remains of prehistoric creatures). I feel like there must be an explanation. Sure, it may all eventually be explained by something as simple as, as I said before, carbon monoxide emissions (which can cause people to have "visions"). Still, I have had too many experiences with "bad vibes" when walking into houses that turned out to be accurate than to think it's all just imaginations gone wild.
Also I'm a bit confused on your mention of correlation and causation. Where is the correlation and causation being confused? Are you saying that people wrongly assume that ghosts cause certain environments when it is certain environments that are uncomfortable in a way that people assume there are ghosts?
On an unrelated note
Since you mentioned your skepticism of the string theory, how do you feel about quantum physics in general?
I entirely agree with you here, Sally - and I don't want to offend anyone who does believe in these things, but I believe that the mind is extremely suggestive. If you're in a house, alone, and you hear a noise, it is easy for the mind to embellish the sound to make sense of it and turn it into something recognizable, for instance, a voice. Have you ever seen a face in the dark, only to turn on the light and realize that you left your clothes on the chair and the folds seem to make a nose and cheekbones etc? I think that ghost sightings and the like are caused by the mind trying to make sense of that which it cannot explain.
You're, of course, to believe or not believe what you wish. Still, no offense, but I honestly am not a fan of the "oh I believe in science" spin. Am I any less into science if I believe in gut reactions and tarot and feelings of things and people that happened or existed in a certain place?
I also agree with you, Amy, that there are things that science doesn't understand yet - but I think that one day, perhaps we will. Just because we have not reached a scientific answer, it doesn't mean that the answer is supernatural. If 'ghosts' exist, then their existence is natural and therefore part of the scientific world.
I think that Sally's correlation and causation comment refers to whether or not a relationship is purely coincidental, or whether one factor affects the other. If you get 'bad vibes' in a building in which a murder occurred, it does not necessarily mean that the murder caused the vibes. It could be a random coincidence. Sally, correct me if I'm wrong on that.
I'm a physicist. Quantum mechanics is my life.
The fact that you mention homosexuality is very interesting. Homosexuality is, and has been, an issue that people have strong opinions about. A lot of this comes from the pervasiveness of religious doctrine. Any attempt to look at the issue in the past was clouded by discrimination and predisposition toward condemnation. So that, in and of itself, was NOT science. It was just a bunch of people with the opinion that homosexuality was an illness- and science is NOT opinions. That bunch of people were therefore not real scientists.
As for T-Rex, that's a matter of archeology, and archeology is cursed by the fact that it requires an immense amount of digging in order to have anything to say anything about. The more they dig, the more they find, the more they know for certain. But again, no feelings, emotions or default explanations of ghosts involved.
As for the survival of myths and unicorns- I think that's a tribute to the power of the human imagination.
I don't want to sound like a pompous jerk here. It's just that I grew up with people who pick apart the physically impossible parts of movies, ya know? So science is my life.
You don't sound like a jerk, you just have your own opinions and beliefs. There's nothing wrong with that.
Oh, and Christine - with regards to Ouija boards, I don't think that your friend was necessarily pushing the glass intentionally. When people play the Ouija board and believe in it, I think that they are unintentionally and subconsciously pushing the glass a fraction at a time - so that their own pushing is undetectable even to them. Once, when playing with friends (I was the only skeptic), a 'spirit' told us that his name was Jakywa, or something similar. My friends all immediately decided that he must be Korean because the name sounded foreign. You can twist things, without even meaning to, to reach the answer you expect. I'm not saying that this is true of everyone, and it's certainly not a conscious thing, but the mind can manipulate itself into believing the unbelievable.
Mhmm, I understand. If one of us were subconciously pushing it, it most likely wasn't me because I was watching it slide while my fingers stayed in the same place as it slid. But then again, I may have blocked out the parts where I helped to move it.
I personally do think that ghosts are possible, but I am slightly skeptical of the Ouija board, but yet, I want to believe it.
The reason it seems real may just be because I want to believe it so much, but either way, I want to leave the possibility open.
I don't want to sound like a pompous jerk here. It's just that I grew up with people who pick apart the physically impossible parts of movies, ya know? So science is my life.
You don't sound like a pompous jerk at all, in fact you sound like quite the opposite. I just like discussions, though I realize my comments can come across as patronizing rather when I mean them to be made out of curiosity.
I know very little about quantum mechanics, though I find it intensely interesting. Unfortunately, all I know revolves around What the Bleep Do We Know?
He said a lot of strange things. That's all i have to say